I would like to let you know that Kaila Larson is excellent communicator, personable, professional and knowledgeableI have had the opportunity to talk to her 3 times and it has always been awesome.Regards,Dr Carlos santos - 4/08/2022
Caleb King
Kaila Larson is the support specialist for our office and has been outstanding. She gets back to us quickly with any questions we have, and will log into the computer and fix issues so we don't even have to worry about them. She is extremely knowled...read moreKaila Larson is the support specialist for our office and has been outstanding. She gets back to us quickly with any questions we have, and will log into the computer and fix issues so we don't even have to worry about them. She is extremely knowledgeable about the MEDIT scanner and the supporting software. She responds to calls and texts or emails and will communicate with us in whatever way is most convenient for our office. She has saved us hours of time and headache by always being available to help.read less - 5/25/2022
Paul Crespo
Cad-Ray has been instrumental in implementing and supporting our experience with scanning. Having scanned previously with other services I can truly say that Cad-Ray takes their clients very seriously and will not leave you hanging. They set the ba...read moreCad-Ray has been instrumental in implementing and supporting our experience with scanning. Having scanned previously with other services I can truly say that Cad-Ray takes their clients very seriously and will not leave you hanging. They set the bar very high. Cad-Ray all the way!read less - 12/09/2021
Zachary Breen
I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray back in May and the purchasing process, setting-up and trouble shooting has been extremely easy and straight forward with CAD-Ray. The Medit i700 is one of the best, if not the best, scanner I have used in the ...read moreI purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray back in May and the purchasing process, setting-up and trouble shooting has been extremely easy and straight forward with CAD-Ray. The Medit i700 is one of the best, if not the best, scanner I have used in the past 5 years of using intraoral scanners. Recently I ran into a software issues with my scanner and I am extremely impressed with CAD-Ray and Medit's timely manner in addressing my issue. Within minutes I was on the phone with them and they had my concerns addressed and solved. I previously recommended a few colleagues to CAD-Ray and I will continue to recommend with even greater enthusiasm. I am very pleased with their customer service and the Medit i700. Thank you CAD-Ray!read less - 9/30/2021
The cad ray team is the best! Jon and Nick offer first class service! I ordered a medit i500 from another supplier and had to cancel my order after it had not arrived within 3 weeks. Placed my order with Jon and Nick, had the scanner to me within 24 ...read moreThe cad ray team is the best! Jon and Nick offer first class service! I ordered a medit i500 from another supplier and had to cancel my order after it had not arrived within 3 weeks. Placed my order with Jon and Nick, had the scanner to me within 24 hours of purchase. I love my medit! Best scanner on the market!read less - 6/15/2020
I Love it !!! I needed to replace my Omnicam because the computer hardware was old and not able to keep up with the software upgrades. The computer upgrade costs from Sirona were cost-prohibitive (another reason why the Medit is so good) and I wasn...read moreI Love it !!! I needed to replace my Omnicam because the computer hardware was old and not able to keep up with the software upgrades. The computer upgrade costs from Sirona were cost-prohibitive (another reason why the Medit is so good) and I wasn't about to make the same mistake twice and replace it with another system from Sirona. I was a bit unsure about making a big switch but after speaking with Nick Statly at Cad-Ray, he eliminated all of my reservations and I ordered it. I've used it for the past week and love it. Setting it up and getting it running was simple. I would not describe this as a do it yourself process, it's much easier. If you can make a cup of coffee you can set the scanner up and start making excellent scans. All one needs to do is watch the very well laid out and easy to follow videos and save a lot of money. The image quality and ease of use hands down beats the Omnicam. Also during the current pandemic, I really feel better about being able to cold sterlize the tips vs the omnicam's just "wiping down." I almost hope my desktop scanner craps out so I can get the Medit desktop. I'm glad I listened to you Nick!!!read less - 6/04/2020
I'm a dentist in NJ, and I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray. Hands down they have the best support team. Laura is awesome with helping us using the Medit and with providing any support we may need. One of my best decisions so far was working wit...read moreI'm a dentist in NJ, and I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray. Hands down they have the best support team. Laura is awesome with helping us using the Medit and with providing any support we may need. One of my best decisions so far was working with CAD-Ray.read less - 4/15/2022
Scott Terry
Six Stars! On a scale of one to five, I give CAD-Ray six stars. They really are that good. If you are purchasing an intra-oral scanner, I would recommend buying the Medit I-700. It is a dream machine. But, if you want incredible service every time, y...read moreSix Stars! On a scale of one to five, I give CAD-Ray six stars. They really are that good. If you are purchasing an intra-oral scanner, I would recommend buying the Medit I-700. It is a dream machine. But, if you want incredible service every time, you should buy your scanner from Cad-Ray. They have come through with flying colors each time I have contacted them. Their sales team great and their service is amazing. They have volumes of educational videos available, as well. I have worked with Jonathan, Damien, Frank, Armen and Laura. In a time where we are seeing the opposite, CAD-Ray will totally blow you away with the entire experience. I totally appreciate them and their value.read less - 11/01/2021
Richard Salvatore
I purchased a Medit Scanner from Cad Ray and the entire experience has been phenomenal. Their customer service is top notch and always accessible by text! I have FaceTimed Frank more than once during a hectic day to help me with my scanner. Thanks te...read moreI purchased a Medit Scanner from Cad Ray and the entire experience has been phenomenal. Their customer service is top notch and always accessible by text! I have FaceTimed Frank more than once during a hectic day to help me with my scanner. Thanks team!read less - 6/19/2020
Ma. Teresa Santana
Best support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to...read moreBest support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to help them. Told her next time buy from Cad Rayread less - 5/11/2024
Dana Mallard
Heather Gramely provided excellent costumer support today. She went above and beyond the reason I even called to update our computer and software and aid in warranty information/repairs. - 2/08/2022
Michael White
Everyone I have dealt with during the process of buying my new N4 VHF mill (which by the way is fantastic) last year to buying a new iMedit 500 scanner. Having the open type system has been a God send. No more held hostage by the 2 main systems us ...read moreEveryone I have dealt with during the process of buying my new N4 VHF mill (which by the way is fantastic) last year to buying a new iMedit 500 scanner. Having the open type system has been a God send. No more held hostage by the 2 main systems us same day crown dentists have had to deal with for years. Cad-ray made the financing a snap and the post customer support is unbelievable. Thank you everyone at Cad-Rayread less - 5/12/2020
Jamal
I recently made a purchase from Cad-Ray and the experience was truly outstanding. From my initial enquiry, Nick was incredibly supportive and knowledgeable, answering all of my questions thoroughly and guiding me to the product that would best meet m...read moreI recently made a purchase from Cad-Ray and the experience was truly outstanding. From my initial enquiry, Nick was incredibly supportive and knowledgeable, answering all of my questions thoroughly and guiding me to the product that would best meet my needs. What really set this experience apart was his non-pushy approach. Nick showed genuine interest in understanding my specific requirements, ensuring that I would be fully satisfied with my choice. This type of customer service is rare and it made the whole process much more enjoyable. I can confidently recommend Cad-Ray to others not just for their high-quality products, but for their exceptional customer service. A big thank you to Nick and the entire Cad-Ray team for their professionalism and dedication.read less - 5/17/2023
Engy Hassan
Amazing customer service! Excellent on time feedback. Thank you Kaila - 12/08/2021
Emerson Gower
Nothing but great things to say about Cad-Ray! Excellent customer support from Laura after the purchase of our Medit i500 and the cart from Damien. I’ve been very impressed with the Medit in restoring crown and bridge, as well as fixed hybrids, and...read moreNothing but great things to say about Cad-Ray! Excellent customer support from Laura after the purchase of our Medit i500 and the cart from Damien. I’ve been very impressed with the Medit in restoring crown and bridge, as well as fixed hybrids, and learning more of its capabilities each day. We have intentions to buy a second Medit shortly and will definitely be using Cad-ray again.read less - 12/13/2021
Chase Funk
This has been awesome, to be honest I have know idea how to use it but our team members have picked it up so easy!! - 6/16/2020
arthur lyford
I cannot say enough about the support I have received from the beginning. I chose CadRay ultimately because of the support reviews...I can attest first hand...they are all right on...though I have been practicing for more than 35 years, this old dog ...read moreI cannot say enough about the support I have received from the beginning. I chose CadRay ultimately because of the support reviews...I can attest first hand...they are all right on...though I have been practicing for more than 35 years, this old dog has been taught a lot of new tricks from the support staff at Cad Ray...Truly impressed with every interaction so far! Thanks 10/4/2023 And they did it again today with ten minutes before the pt came in 3Shpe server would not connect with the computer and Andy got to 3Shape directly and had us up and running...thankfully I didn't have to call anyone but CadRay...thanks again....read less - 10/05/2023
Brandon Erickson
I have strong feelings about how great CAD-Ray has been. I purchased a medit i500 scanner from my lap, they wanted to use it for courses which aren't happening now so he didn't want to be sitting with this expensive piece of technology sitting aroun...read moreI have strong feelings about how great CAD-Ray has been. I purchased a medit i500 scanner from my lap, they wanted to use it for courses which aren't happening now so he didn't want to be sitting with this expensive piece of technology sitting around. Before purchasing he and I both talked to the Nobel sales rep who assured me that everything would transfer over just fine. I was concerned about the learning curve and wanted to be sure that I would have tech support. I asked the rep directly and he assured me again that everything would be great and he would come do an in-depth training with me. Long story short, the sales rep had no clue what he was doing and put very little effort in to helping me once the purchase was complete. I asked him over the phone how to do a few things and his response was to call CAD-Ray. They explained that this happens, they would love to help me but asked that I purchase the service package. That was a game changer. Now all of my questions getting answered, their response time is amazing and their understanding of the machine is by far better then the Nobel reps. The scanner is great but combine that with their tech support and I feel like I'm set up for success. If I were to do this again, I would skip the headache of trying to save a little bit of money and purchase it through CAD-Ray. But even with making the mistake, I feel like they have programs and support set up to point me in the right direction.read less - 10/15/2020
Otto Herod
I received my Medit scanner a couple months ago from Cad-ray, and I can't express enough how awesome it is. I have done a ton of research and used the latest IOS from one of the big guys, and due to many software issues I was able to return that mach...read moreI received my Medit scanner a couple months ago from Cad-ray, and I can't express enough how awesome it is. I have done a ton of research and used the latest IOS from one of the big guys, and due to many software issues I was able to return that machine. And thank God, because it was so over priced and came with a $300/month support fee forever! The Medit scanner is as good or better than that one when it was working properly, and for the price it's a no brainier.read less - 9/17/2020
Dado Dado
Frank DeLuca has been great since we bought the scanner! Always there for you and returns his calls asap. Thank you Frank! - 1/25/2023
Mark Gerome
When I bought my first scanner a few years ago I was blown away by CAD-RAY’s support! They do a great job of getting you and your team ready to go with it. Frank D. has been a huge help with getting us confident with our scanners and making sure we a...read moreWhen I bought my first scanner a few years ago I was blown away by CAD-RAY’s support! They do a great job of getting you and your team ready to go with it. Frank D. has been a huge help with getting us confident with our scanners and making sure we are taken care of. He and his colleagues at CAD-RAY are always a responsive to our calls. Thank you!read less - 2/21/2023
Alderman Dental
Frank DeLuca from CAD-Ray has been absolutely awesome from day one. Readily available and very knowledgeable to provide support when needed. - 1/25/2023
Ellen Huang
Armen created series of these very helpful videos. They helped us tremendously in breaking into the new scanner we purchased. No matter you just got into digital dentistry or you are quite experienced with different fields of data acquiring or treatm...read moreArmen created series of these very helpful videos. They helped us tremendously in breaking into the new scanner we purchased. No matter you just got into digital dentistry or you are quite experienced with different fields of data acquiring or treatment planning, you will find those being tremendous help.read less - 5/24/2020
I cannot say enough good things about Cad-Ray and the people involved with this organization. I have purchased equipment over the past few years from them and always been amazed at the non-pushy before the sale help and the after the sale support. ...read moreI cannot say enough good things about Cad-Ray and the people involved with this organization. I have purchased equipment over the past few years from them and always been amazed at the non-pushy before the sale help and the after the sale support. I have been deciding for the last 2 years to make a big purchase of a mill and sintering furnace and Jon has never made me feel like I was bothering him and never pushed me just to try to get a sale. It really is different from other sales experiences I've had with other companies/sales people.Jesse came out and installed and provided training for our new mill and sintering furnace. He went above and beyond what I was expecting to make sure myself and my team knew how everything works during the training. He has also been great with questions we have had since the installation. I just cannot say enough good things about my experience all around and will definitely be a Cad-Ray customer for many years to come. Thank you Cad-Ray!read less - 6/15/2022
Ed Borio
I was dragging my feet before purchasing my first scanner because I was apprehensive of the effort required to change to a digital workflow. Laura assured me my fears were overblown and because of her patience and exceptional training abilities it h...read moreI was dragging my feet before purchasing my first scanner because I was apprehensive of the effort required to change to a digital workflow. Laura assured me my fears were overblown and because of her patience and exceptional training abilities it has been a rewarding and relatively seamless transition to the world of scanning. I never dreamed implementation would have been this easy and its attributed to Laura's skillful training ability. The scanner is wonderful and powerful, but we would have never been able to unlock its potential without her assistance.read less - 5/07/2021
Jared H
Purchasing my medit i700 from Cad-Ray was a great decision. I did my first training with Kaila and she was fantastic! Super knowledgeable, patient and truly helpful in making sure I was ready to hit the ground running with patient care. I put a call ...read morePurchasing my medit i700 from Cad-Ray was a great decision. I did my first training with Kaila and she was fantastic! Super knowledgeable, patient and truly helpful in making sure I was ready to hit the ground running with patient care. I put a call into cad-ray support in the middle of a case and sure enough Kaila was also the one to answer and handle the situation. She jumped right on my computer and had things fixed in a matter of a few minutes. Awesome support, great staff and overall super positive experience with Cad-ray thus far!read less - 5/06/2022
Gwen Giannina
CAD-Ray is an amazing company. I purchased my scanner 3 years ago. Any small issue immediately resolved by calling them for help. I originally scanned with Cerec. The ROI doesn't even compare. The Medit was by far the best technology purchase of my ...read moreCAD-Ray is an amazing company. I purchased my scanner 3 years ago. Any small issue immediately resolved by calling them for help. I originally scanned with Cerec. The ROI doesn't even compare. The Medit was by far the best technology purchase of my 20 plus years in dentistry. I will upgrade at some point and will buy again from CAD-RAY!read less - 2/04/2022
Andy M
It has been great to work with Laura and Heather. The purchase, financing, shipping, and training process has been smooth. The training was very comprehensive and not rushed at all. I love my Medit i-600 scanner, and I recommend CAD-RAY 100%! - 5/25/2024
Franco Picofazzi
Great product at an affordable price, not to mention Andy's help at customer service. Highly recommended. - 6/23/2022
Shout out to Nick, Frank and Armen ! Cheers . Great customer service by Nick and Frank. Too early to make a comment about the scanner but these guys are awesome. - 9/19/2020
Mark Evans
I’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little indepe...read moreI’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little independent distributors. They just called us, and we just found out. What this means is that we won’t be able to provide you service after purchasing the VHF mill that you just bought.”Now, they could have just left it at that. They could have said, “Sorry, it’s out of our hands.” They could have said, “We appreciate your business, but it’s not our fault.” They could have said, “That’s the way the cookie crumbles.”But they didn’t.Frank Weinstein calls me up and tells me that they want to make this right, so they are going to hook me up with a brand new Imes Coritec One+ for the same price as the VHF. The Coritec One+ is like the Mercedes of mills for in-office. This is the new model that just barely came out. It is a 5 axis mill. It does wet and dry milling. It does blocks and pucks. It mills all materials know to man, including Vibranium. It can also fly the space shuttle, and make all your wishes and dreams come true. It’s that good. It came with the laptop, Exocad, all the tools, and all the bells and whistles. It came fully loaded. It came white glove delivered to my office. It came with in office training. It came with the extra bur package. It came with everything and the kitchen sink.So, I paid 36k for a mill, and because of something that was not Cad-Rays fault, they ended up giving me a 60k mill for the same price.In the words of the great Tony Stark: “That’s how Dad did it. That’s how Cad-Ray does it. And it’s worked out pretty well so far.”Thank you Frank Weinstein and Armen Mirzayan for having outstanding customer service and going the extra mile every time.read less - 4/09/2021
Todd Haskin
The medit is one of the best scanners on the market with the best price. Cad ray's support and training is phenomenal and they are very quick to respond. We work with Laura. Highly recommend. - 12/16/2021
Mike Capio
Nothing but good things to say about CAD-Ray. All of the education, recommendations, and products they provide are truly the best in digital dentistry at the time. - 6/20/2020
Anthony Vu
If you are looking to buy a Medit, you shouldn't look anywhere else to buy it. My Medit i700 was having issues on a Friday and I was able to get Heather from Cad-Ray to troubleshoot the issue. She remoted into my computer to try and troubleshoot the ...read moreIf you are looking to buy a Medit, you shouldn't look anywhere else to buy it. My Medit i700 was having issues on a Friday and I was able to get Heather from Cad-Ray to troubleshoot the issue. She remoted into my computer to try and troubleshoot the issue and helped with getting Medit on board as well. Once it was confirmed it was a hardware issue, I got sent a BRAND NEW Medit i700 OVERNIGHT.Can you believe that? Service and warranty that Cad-Ray offers is really TOP NOTCH.Highly Recommend Cad-Ray for all things MEDIT. Thank you Heather from Cad-Ray for all your help!!!read less - 2/02/2022
Greg Camfield
CAD-Ray keeps knocking it out of the park. Upgraded from i500 to i700. Transition was seamless! Thanks again guys! - 11/15/2022
Wes Buchman
Used CAD-Ray for my Medit scanner purchase, training, and assistance and have had zero problems. They are so quick to respond to inquiries and helping with any minor issues (which have been very minimal). Highly recommend working with this company - 8/27/2021
A C
Kaila and Laura were amazing to work with. I would not hesitate to buy again from them. Super helpful/available and one of the best experiences I’ve had making such a big investment in equipment like I had to make for my practice. Way to go Cad Ray f...read moreKaila and Laura were amazing to work with. I would not hesitate to buy again from them. Super helpful/available and one of the best experiences I’ve had making such a big investment in equipment like I had to make for my practice. Way to go Cad Ray for running a solid business!read less - 11/15/2024
Oleg Eisenstein
Great products and services. Highly recommended - 6/16/2020
I had been looking into scanners for a while and I could not deny the good reviews of CAD-Ray, so I gave them a call. I was pleasantly (not) surprised by the excellent service I received. Laura Geney set up a call quickly and very simply and plainly ...read moreI had been looking into scanners for a while and I could not deny the good reviews of CAD-Ray, so I gave them a call. I was pleasantly (not) surprised by the excellent service I received. Laura Geney set up a call quickly and very simply and plainly discussed with me my options. She gave me all the information I needed as well as told me about all the available specials I would be able to take advantage of! I ordered my Medit i700 and very soon after received training for myself and dental staff. We have been very happy with the service from CAD-Ray and look forward to maintaining a long lasting relationship with them. Would strongly recommend Laura and CAD-Ray!read less - 4/07/2022
Mary Oliverie
Last year when I started looking into the Medit i500 I had my front desk call 3 sellers to get preliminary information. She told me hands down call CAD-RAY and don’t bother with the others. Boy was she right! Frank got us going with all our hardware ...read moreLast year when I started looking into the Medit i500 I had my front desk call 3 sellers to get preliminary information. She told me hands down call CAD-RAY and don’t bother with the others. Boy was she right! Frank got us going with all our hardware needs and trained us until all our questions were answered. Then Jonathon and Armen jumped in at our 2 day live training in Baltimore. I still review my notes to implement all the great ideas. When I get myself in a jam time to time CAD-RAY responds immediately and fixes my problem. Best decision I have made in the practice in a long time - Thank you everyone at CAD-RAY!read less - 10/09/2019
For a few years I have been hesitating to get an intra oral scanner. I finally made the decision to get one and it turned out to be the best purchase I made in 2021!I love my Medit i700! - 11/23/2021
My rep Nick at Cad-ray was very helpful in my purchase of the Medit i700. So far, I love the scanner and have no regrets about my purchase. The setup and support from the company have been seamless as well and the purchase process with financing!
I ...read moreMy rep Nick at Cad-ray was very helpful in my purchase of the Medit i700. So far, I love the scanner and have no regrets about my purchase. The setup and support from the company have been seamless as well and the purchase process with financing!
I was considering the new itero as well and happy I got the Medit instead! The lightweight scanner as well as no monthly ongoing fees was what ultimately won me over, as well as the robust software.read less - 7/21/2021
Absolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell p...read moreAbsolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell phone, no less) on the first go round. Whenever we've even had a hint of technical difficulty there is ALWAYS a knowledgeable voice on the other end of the line. After 3 years of use a significant issue came up with the scanner and they went above and beyond to get it back up and running. Was so impressed (and I realized how dependent we've become on a scanner) that I purchased another one.Needed some assistance submitting a Valplast RPD design digitally this week. Damien worked me through it in literally 5 minutes and took the time to optimize my graphics card performance while he was there. Top shelf service.Certainly, the first place I go with any dental tech purchase.read less - 6/04/2022
Jeff Keh
I love my medit i-500. Cad-Ray has wonderful customer support, I can not imagine getting a scanner from anyone else. Armen and Frank are great! Thanks again. Will recommend cad-ray to all my friends. - 6/16/2020
David Christensen
I purchased the Medit i500 from Cad-Ray December 2018. I couldn’t be happier with the scanner. The improvements Medit has made over the last 10 months are nothing short of astounding! I can’t imaging what they’ll come up with next.
As for Cad-Ray...read moreI purchased the Medit i500 from Cad-Ray December 2018. I couldn’t be happier with the scanner. The improvements Medit has made over the last 10 months are nothing short of astounding! I can’t imaging what they’ll come up with next.
As for Cad-Ray, their support has been second to none. Never have I experienced the kind of attention and help from any other company. Wether it’s with help installing, computer hardware issues or technical help they respond IMMEDIATELY!
Armen is also a huge reason why I chose Cad-Ray. No one selling a product has helped me more evolve my scanning technique. He’s quick to respond to questions and issues I feel his service is a huge reason why to buy from CAD-RAY.read less - 10/09/2019
I live in Puerto Rico and Cad-Ray made my decision easy when it comes to purchasing Dental equipment. I decided to call after having connection issues with my i700 and Andy responded immediately. He was very pleasant to work with and within 2 days, r...read moreI live in Puerto Rico and Cad-Ray made my decision easy when it comes to purchasing Dental equipment. I decided to call after having connection issues with my i700 and Andy responded immediately. He was very pleasant to work with and within 2 days, received my brand new cord. I can always always rely on Cad-Ray for their incredible support and highly recommend this company to anyone looking to explore digital dentistry.read less - 12/30/2021
Ramin Goshtasbi
Great service even if you own a Primescan. Company is built on customer service. Thanks for the help guys…. - 1/05/2022
Asi Cohen
Armen Mirzayan's knowledge base sets CAD-RAY.COM apart from all other digital dental-equipment dealers. Not content with linking manufacturer support content, Armen's team provide instant feedback to any equipment queries, in-depth video tutorials, a...read moreArmen Mirzayan's knowledge base sets CAD-RAY.COM apart from all other digital dental-equipment dealers. Not content with linking manufacturer support content, Armen's team provide instant feedback to any equipment queries, in-depth video tutorials, and regular product testing, streamlining, and pushing the boundaries of their products - be it software, hardware, or connectivity between various brands. I highly recommend this team if you want to fully utilise your equipment and have the backup needed going forward!read less - 11/05/2019